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Lasombra "Anti-tribu" Debate Page

Welcome to the debate page. Read the debates, and make your response with the form at the end. Of course, you could always start your own debate. I look forward to seeing this page grow and prosper.
Alexander Horne

Now, I believe it is time for a change in the page format. I will now start using nothing but guest proposed topics, without deciding a winner/loser. I hope this will bringout the innate cunning that has kept most of us alive for several centuries. Come on, be creative.(I will continue the present debate for two weeks.)

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Is Lasombra Dead?

Rule are as follows: State your position and Back it up. You may use logic or evidence, but you MUST back up your point in some manner.

Joshua Henri Bouton

I would have to say that Lasombra is no longer Lasombra. I will not commit myself to saying that he is truely dead in the most absolute form of the word, but I will say that i believe the he is no longer the Lasombra of Tradition. I believe, from my presence at the Battle that Lasombra was killed-even though I did not witness it, but I would say that, while unlikely, it is possible for Lasombra to have passed some of himself to Gratiano. (either way it does not really matter-he is still with the Lasombra, or he died and Montano lost). I believe, however, that Lasombra was trying to teach us a lesson about the evil of the elders with the sacrifice of his own (yes, i do think he would die just to make a point).[sic]

Sir Alexander Horne

Joshua, you make a good point,for the True Lasombra. If Lasombra died to show the evil of the elders, than why did he die? I was also at the Battle, and I saw Lasombra go down. He was defeated, true. Yet his death was not voluntary. He was being attacked by Gratiano and ten other Lasombra, none of whom were followers of Montano. I would have come to Lasombra's aid had not he invoked an oath I made to let my Brothers Fight their own fights of honor. Yes, Lasombra fought honorably, while your great Gratiano mob Lasombra to torpor. Then, when Lasombra fell, Montano rallied us for our stand. As you well know, I was one of the last to fall to unconsciousness, feeding on my foes as I slew them, and healing my wounds. I remember the Chains of Despair. I still bear the mark of them on my arm. I also remember the vision of Lasomobra, if it was indeed just a vision, that allowed me to shatter my Chains, and escape into the Shadowlands, the only time I ever willingly traveled there. I also do not know whether Lasombra is alive or dead, but I must hope that, maybe he is alive, somewhere. Maybe Montano knows for certain, but he is not telling. And why would Lasombra give some of himself to Gratiano, who killed him dishonorably? When Lasombra spoke to me, honor was always brought up. No, your arguments do not match reality.

Joshua Henri Bouton

If Lasombra did not wish to be taken down, in some fashion, he would not have fallen. I have never been honest with my generation o my origins, and I do not plan to start now, but while you were fighting inside the walls, I was fighting with the Assamite Antitribu on the outside of the castle, finishing off the remains of the Victory Corp who were young enough not to be chained, and I knew the moment my sire's sire, who you followed fell. My sire is now a Methuselah of immense power, just as montano is, who I would never want to face. I do not believe, knowing the comparitive power of my sire, Gratiano, and myself-that Gratiano and the rest of us destroyed Lasombra without it being, at least partially, his will. You say that Lasombra was about honor, all I remember of Lasombra is an almost fanatical demand for loyalty and victory. Lasombra always taught that the strongest shall survive. I believe that he died to make that point to Montano and that he did so to fuel the war between the youth and his fellow antedeluvians. You speak of honor and Lasombra, but Lasombra, like myself followed the path of Power. Nowhere is honor mentioned, honor is a human trait, perhaps you have spent too much time with the Ventrue of the Camarilla pretending to be human?[sic]

Sir Alexander Horne

First, I sincerely doubt you were fighting with the Assamite Anti-tribu, as the Assamites did not split until 1496, three years after the Battle, and their split was not on ideological grounds, but because one group was not affected by the Tremere's Curse. Second, Lasombra could not have let himself be defeated because he would have accepted defeat, helped others when it was not to his advantage, lost face in front of a crowd, and accepted someone of lesser power as his superior. Third, the path of Power and the Inner Voice teaches following your heart as well as your head. Strength in spirit is just as important as strength in body or power. Lasombra was fanatical about loyalty and victory, which is proof that he was honorable. Loyalty is the first and most important part of honor, and victory preserves your family name, thus being the ultimate act of loyalty short of dying. If you doubt this, then think, how many survivors are there of the ruling families of Monarchial France, of Feudal Japan, or Imperial China? Not that many,is there. Those with honor are stonger of spirit, as has been demonstrated by Tremere and Toreador comments about the strength of my aura. I remember the overwhelming sense of strength that pervaded the room when Lasombra entered it, and this was not any demonstration of presence, which Lasombra did not have. Not even Montano, who, like you, has forgotten Lasombra's teachings on honor, generates that feeling of strength. Montano commented to me recently that he saw Lasombra's aura just before he was thrown into the fire, and this aura was at a level of power that matched Gratiano's. Thing is, even Lasombra's aura should have dropped to a feeble glow when he was taken to torpor. Even his ashes glowed for a good bit after Lasombra's "death." Recently, I had a chance to return to the Castle, and there was still a faint glimmer where Lasombra's body was burned. Lasombra had a strong spirit, indeed. Your memnories of Lasombra are tainted by Gratiano's propaganda while mine are only tainted by 143 years knowing the Founder and 30 years living in the 20th Century.

Donaires Lopez

I don't know if any of you know the story of Set and Orsiris, so I'll give you a synopsis of it. Basically Set took Orsiris, shredded him, and spread his remains all across the upper nile. Later Orsiris wife(I think) managed to regain most of his parts and with the blood of several other vampires and possibly so sort of ritual brought Orsiris back to unlife. Course Set destroyed him for good after wards but that is not the point. The point is Sir Horne said Lasombra's ashes still glow aka his spirit still lives (this was all related to me by a mummy during my visit to Egypt). In conclusion If we could preform this ritual or just get the blood we might get Lasombra back. Also the fact that Joshua refers to Gratiano as a methuselah and not an antediluvian promotes this idea unless Joshua meant that as an age and not a generation.


Is humanity of any value and what do we Kindred owe the Kine

Proposed by Dermot O'Brian

Sir ALexander Horne

Hmmmmm.....Well, without Humanity, many of the current technology would not exist. Also, the Mages are technically human, and members of some of the Traditions are quite useful. Third, without Humanity, there would be no Kindred, as I have never met a cat that was a Kindred(vampire yes, Kindred no). Finally, with the exception of the Gangrel and some Ventrue, most Kindred feed on the Kine and not animals. Now, as to what we owe the Kine, that is really quite simple. We owe the Kine our "Lives."


If all out war broke out between the Sects, who would be the victor?

Proposed by Anson


Who is really being manipulted by the Grandchilder of Caine

Proposed by Nathaniel Blaze

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