Lasombra "Anti-tribu" Debate Page
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will bringout the innate cunning that has kept most of us alive for several
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Enter into the Debate:
Is Lasombra Dead?
Rule are as follows: State your position and Back it up.
You may use logic or evidence, but you MUST back up your
point in some manner.
Joshua Henri Bouton
I would have to say that Lasombra is no longer Lasombra. I will
not commit myself to saying that he is truely dead in the most
absolute form of the word, but I will say that i believe the he
is no longer the Lasombra of Tradition. I believe, from my presence
at the Battle that Lasombra was killed-even though I did not witness
it, but I would say that, while unlikely, it is possible for Lasombra
to have passed some of himself to Gratiano. (either way it does not
really matter-he is still with the Lasombra, or he died and Montano
lost). I believe, however, that Lasombra was trying to teach us a
lesson about the evil of the elders with the sacrifice of his own
(yes, i do think he would die just to make a point).[sic]
Sir Alexander Horne
Joshua, you make a good point,for the True Lasombra. If Lasombra
died to show the evil of the elders, than why did he die? I was
also at the Battle, and I saw Lasombra go down. He was defeated,
true. Yet his death was not voluntary. He was being attacked by
Gratiano and ten other Lasombra, none of whom were followers of
Montano. I would have come to Lasombra's aid had not he invoked
an oath I made to let my Brothers Fight their own fights of honor.
Yes, Lasombra fought honorably, while your great Gratiano mob
Lasombra to torpor. Then, when Lasombra fell, Montano rallied us for
our stand. As you well know, I was one of the last to fall to unconsciousness,
feeding on my foes as I slew them, and healing my wounds. I remember
the Chains of Despair. I still bear the mark of them on my arm. I
also remember the vision of Lasomobra, if it was indeed just a vision,
that allowed me to shatter my Chains, and escape into the Shadowlands,
the only time I ever willingly traveled there. I also do not know whether
Lasombra is alive or dead, but I must hope that, maybe he is alive, somewhere.
Maybe Montano knows for certain, but he is not telling. And why would
Lasombra give some of himself to Gratiano, who killed him dishonorably?
When Lasombra spoke to me, honor was always brought up. No, your arguments
do not match reality.
Joshua Henri Bouton
If Lasombra did not wish to be taken down, in some fashion, he would not have
fallen. I have never been honest with my generation o my origins, and I do not
plan to start now, but while you were fighting inside the walls, I was
fighting with the Assamite Antitribu on the outside of the castle, finishing
off the remains of the Victory Corp who were young enough not to be chained,
and I knew the moment my sire's sire, who you followed fell. My sire is now
a Methuselah of immense power, just as montano is, who I would never want to
face. I do not believe, knowing the comparitive power of my sire, Gratiano,
and myself-that Gratiano and the rest of us destroyed Lasombra without it
being, at least partially, his will. You say that Lasombra was about honor,
all I remember of Lasombra is an almost fanatical demand for loyalty and
victory. Lasombra always taught that the strongest shall survive. I believe
that he died to make that point to Montano and that he did so to fuel the war
between the youth and his fellow antedeluvians. You speak of honor and Lasombra,
but Lasombra, like myself followed the path of Power. Nowhere is honor
mentioned, honor is a human trait, perhaps you have spent too much time with
the Ventrue of the Camarilla pretending to be human?[sic]
Sir Alexander Horne
First, I sincerely doubt you were fighting with the Assamite Anti-tribu, as
the Assamites did not split until 1496, three years after the Battle, and
their split was not on ideological grounds, but because one group was not
affected by the Tremere's Curse. Second, Lasombra could not have let himself
be defeated because he would have accepted defeat, helped others when it was
not to his advantage, lost face in front of a crowd, and accepted someone of
lesser power as his superior. Third, the path of Power and the Inner Voice
teaches following your heart as well as your head. Strength in spirit is just
as important as strength in body or power. Lasombra was fanatical about
loyalty and victory, which is proof that he was honorable. Loyalty is the
first and most important part of honor, and victory preserves your family
name, thus being the ultimate act of loyalty short of dying. If you doubt
this, then think, how many survivors are there of the ruling families
of Monarchial France, of Feudal Japan, or Imperial China? Not that many,is
there. Those with honor are stonger of spirit, as has been demonstrated by
Tremere and Toreador comments about the strength of my aura. I remember
the overwhelming sense of strength that pervaded the room when Lasombra
entered it, and this was not any demonstration of presence, which Lasombra
did not have. Not even Montano, who, like you, has forgotten Lasombra's
teachings on honor, generates that feeling of strength. Montano commented
to me recently that he saw Lasombra's aura just before he was thrown into
the fire, and this aura was at a level of power that matched Gratiano's.
Thing is, even Lasombra's aura should have dropped to a feeble glow when
he was taken to torpor. Even his ashes glowed for a good bit after Lasombra's
"death." Recently, I had a chance to return to the Castle, and there was still
a faint glimmer where Lasombra's body was burned. Lasombra had a strong
spirit, indeed. Your memnories of Lasombra are tainted by Gratiano's
propaganda while mine are only tainted by 143 years knowing the Founder and
30 years living in the 20th Century.
I don't know if any of you know the story of Set and Orsiris, so I'll give
you a synopsis of it. Basically Set took Orsiris, shredded him, and spread
his remains all across the upper nile. Later Orsiris wife(I think) managed to
regain most of his parts and with the blood of several other vampires and
possibly so sort of ritual brought Orsiris back to unlife. Course Set destroyed
him for good after wards but that is not the point. The point is Sir Horne
said Lasombra's ashes still glow aka his spirit still lives (this was all
related to me by a mummy during my visit to Egypt). In conclusion If we could
preform this ritual or just get the blood we might get Lasombra back. Also the
fact that Joshua refers to Gratiano as a methuselah and not an antediluvian
promotes this idea unless Joshua meant that as an age and not a generation.
Is humanity of any value and what do we Kindred owe the Kine
Proposed by Dermot O'Brian
Sir ALexander Horne
Hmmmmm.....Well, without Humanity, many of the current technology would not exist.
Also, the Mages are technically human, and members of some of the Traditions
are quite useful. Third, without Humanity, there would be no Kindred, as I
have never met a cat that was a Kindred(vampire yes, Kindred no). Finally,
with the exception of the Gangrel and some Ventrue, most Kindred feed on the
Kine and not animals. Now, as to what we owe the Kine, that is really quite simple.
We owe the Kine our "Lives."
If all out war broke out between the Sects, who would be the victor?
Proposed by Anson
Who is really being manipulted by the Grandchilder of Caine
Proposed by Nathaniel Blaze